This post was lost during the boards short demise and was unable to be brought back to life with all replies that had been made to it even with Melons heroic efforts it was all lost so if you would not mind and if at all possible please post your replies again and I will do my best to reply to them as closely as possible to any previous reply I made.
Thank you,
Eiregirl
Freedom
What does it mean to you?
When it is taken from your hand,
What would you do?
Would you stand and shout?
Scream at the top of your voice,
Or would you lay down and pout?
If it were all taken in and instance
Would you turn without a word?
Would you watch it all from a distance?
Would you stand on the front line?
Would you say this far and no more?
Do you even have a spine?
Can you see it slowly slipping away?
In the guise of a little safety it is taken
From liberty we must never stray
How many think “it will never happen to me”?
How many think “it is someone else’s problem”?
Many around the world would DISAGREE!
If we do not stand for our rights what are we to become?
We cannot allow our spirit to be broken
It does not matter whether you are rich or poor
Your voice deserves to be heard
For freedom there is but one choice
Will this be freedoms last stand?
I thought I would add to this poem some of the thoughts that led to my writing this poem here for all to see. I do this with every poem I write…I just never post it along with the poem for various reasons.
I am not a natural born American but I have resided in this country for many years (legally by the way) and I never cease to marvel at how most Americans take the freedoms they have and enjoy for granted. It is just amazing how much this country has changed in just the last ten to twenty years.
I love history…it is one of my top five favorite interests and sometimes I wonder if we are letting this great country we live in turn more and more into a fascist country with socialistic undertones and it is most definitely leaning toward a police state. Are we letting our freedom and independence slip from our grasp bit by bit and piece by piece with the majority of the people never even noticing or caring that it is happening…I say that again…never noticing or caring that it is happening. If you cared you would stand and shout…you would scream at the top of your voice…you would not turn without saying a word…you would stand on the front line and say this far and no more.
Benjamin Franklin who was one of the framers of the Constitution…hmmm sometimes I wonder if that document has any real meaning anymore especially when a persons property is being taken from them against their will under the guise of imminent domain…do not tell me you do not know that is happening and more…anyway Benjamin Franklin one of the founding fathers of this great and wonderful country once said, “Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." I would rather have myself and my family live free with little safety rather than to live safely with little or no real freedom.
Though my thoughts and this poem were written with the United States in mind they are relevant to all countries around this world.
What does freedom mean to you?
Would you give up your freedom for safety?
Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:00 pm
Start Over
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Somewhere in the cosmos
I'll repost my reply without changing much (hopefully).
Frankly, I don't even remember being taught much about American history in school. I remember being taught quickly about the American Revolution (which was all about fighting for freedom from tyranny), but then we went straight into Abraham Lincoln. Yes, we should be taught about freeing the slaves, but skipping this much history is like discussing slavery and skipping straight to Martin Luther King, Jr. (i.e., you have no idea how any of it came about, you just assume this man was born and are not aware that the whole civil rights movement even happened.
There was even less discussion about the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. We basically just read the Constitution—no discussion about what the Founders were trying to say. How does one sustain their freedom when they are taught nothing about it?
The Founders would not be pleased.
Cheers, Start
"Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood."
-John Adams (2nd President of the United States)
Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:30 am
Mdm Prez
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1536
Location: U.S. of A.
Eire
One of the downsides of being free can be apathy. And apathy can lead to a loss of freedom. This has been shown throughout history. After a time, one becomes complacent, and freedom comes with a cost. Biggest factor leading to apathy is when people rely on the government to take care of them. American freedom is based upon doing it yourself. America is the home of the free because of the brave.
Mdm _________________ If you're not getting the answers you want,
you're not asking the right questions.
Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:31 pm
DarkChyldesKiss Site Admin
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 3381
Location: Inner Sanctum
Eire,
I was sad to find out this post was lost! I will do my best to re-post what I wrote.
I grew up knowing what Freedom is because my father was in the military. My father sacrificed time with his family to ensure that we were safe. Freedom came at a high price because he was gone sometimes 9 months at a time. Many times he came back and we all felt like strangers. He had to work hard at rebuilding trust and relationships.
I grew up with friends who disappeared because their fathers didn't come back from the war. Their families were displaced without much thought to what their husbands had fought for. It's a shame that the government put so little value on their military personnel's lives and the lives of their families.
I know what freedom is because my people are many. My people are the Native Americans who had everything even their freedom taken from them. My people are the Japanese who even after losing a war came back to be stronger than ever. They've paid back their financial debt to America. They've become close to the people they fought with. My people are the Japanese who immigrated to America for a better life and had their freedom taken away because of the color of their skin. My people are the English/Irish who left their ancestral home in the name of freedom.
Everybody takes basic things such as freedom for granted. Until you experience it taken from you, you don't realize what you've got. I grew up on military bases where freedom was always something that could be taken away. My father's decision to keep our country safe also put his family in jeopardy. We got lucky because my dad always came back. My mother listened to the orientation speeches given every time we moved. We listened to the orientation speeches given at school to protect us.
My mother knows what freedom is because she received a hand signed letter from the President when my father retired. They acknowledged the years she served along with my father as his wife and mother to his children. Acknowledged what freedom she gave up as a military wife.
I'll always be aware that freedom is a fragile thing.
Would I step forward in the name of freedom? Yes, I would and have done so. I will never take my freedom for granted!
Excellent post ! I hope that the posts that got lost will be re-posted by everyone who wrote them.
quote:Originally posted by Start Over:
I'll repost my reply without changing much (hopefully).
Frankly, I don't even remember being taught much about American history in school. I remember being taught quickly about the American Revolution (which was all about fighting for freedom from tyranny), but then we went straight into Abraham Lincoln. Yes, we should be taught about freeing the slaves, but skipping this much history is like discussing slavery and skipping straight to Martin Luther King, Jr. (i.e., you have no idea how any of it came about, you just assume this man was born and are not aware that the whole civil rights movement even happened.
There was even less discussion about the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. We basically just read the Constitution—no discussion about what the Founders were trying to say. How does one sustain their freedom when they are taught nothing about it?
The Founders would not be pleased.
Cheers, Start
"Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood."
-John Adams (2nd President of the United States)
Start,
Thank you very much for posting your reply again. I really appreciate it.
I have always found it to be appalling how so many schools do not really teach the Constitution.
When I get into a discussion about the Constitution it never fails that people just do not know what it really says. They rely on what their neighbor told them or the lady behind the counter at the grocery store instead of actually reading it themselves. Then there are those few who do read it but they don’t bother to understand it. Then there are the nutcases who claim the Constitution is a living document and does not really mean what it says. Then there are the real idiots who believe the Constitution says there should and will be a separation of church and state. Show me in the Constitution where it says that and I will do anything you say for a week.
I wonder how many people know without looking it up…how many times the Constitution has been amended.
I wonder how many people know what article 2 of the Constitution deals with.
It is sad that schools in the United States do not really teach the documents that are the very foundation of this country.
quote:Originally posted by Mdm Prez:
One of the downsides of being free can be apathy. And apathy can lead to a loss of freedom. This has been shown throughout history. After a time, one becomes complacent, and freedom comes with a cost. Biggest factor leading to apathy is when people rely on the government to take care of them. American freedom is based upon doing it yourself. America is the home of the free because of the brave.
Mdm
Mdm,
Thank you for the wonderful reply.
If things do not change one day people are going to wake up and wonder just what the hell happened to all the freedoms they took for granted.
I was sad to find out this post was lost! I will do my best to re-post what I wrote.
I grew up knowing what Freedom is because my father was in the military. My father sacrificed time with his family to ensure that we were safe. Freedom came at a high price because he was gone sometimes 9 months at a time. Many times he came back and we all felt like strangers. He had to work hard at rebuilding trust and relationships.
I grew up with friends who disappeared because their fathers didn't come back from the war. Their families were displaced without much thought to what their husbands had fought for. It's a shame that the government put so little value on their military personnel's lives and the lives of their families.
I know what freedom is because my people are many. My people are the Native Americans who had everything even their freedom taken from them. My people are the Japanese who even after losing a war came back to be stronger than ever. They've paid back their financial debt to America. They've become close to the people they fought with. My people are the Japanese who immigrated to America for a better life and had their freedom taken away because of the color of their skin. My people are the English/Irish who left their ancestral home in the name of freedom.
Everybody takes basic things such as freedom for granted. Until you experience it taken from you, you don't realize what you've got. I grew up on military bases where freedom was always something that could be taken away. My father's decision to keep our country safe also put his family in jeopardy. We got lucky because my dad always came back. My mother listened to the orientation speeches given every time we moved. We listened to the orientation speeches given at school to protect us.
My mother knows what freedom is because she received a hand signed letter from the President when my father retired. They acknowledged the years she served along with my father as his wife and mother to his children. Acknowledged what freedom she gave up as a military wife.
I'll always be aware that freedom is a fragile thing.
Would I step forward in the name of freedom? Yes, I would and have done so. I will never take my freedom for granted!
Excellent post ! I hope that the posts that got lost will be re-posted by everyone who wrote them.
Jan
Dark,
Thank you for reposting and thank you for replying.
It is very tragic how the government treats the families of the brave hero's who gave everything in the service of their country.
I know you are and you should be proud of your parents and family.
Most of the time it seems to me that the vast majority of Americans do not care what the government does if it does not have any direct effect on them. Well what about the indirect effect. What about the government thinking "well we got away with that lets wait a year or two and see if we can infringe upons some more rights". The more the government can control the people the more they like it...no matter what party it is.
quote:Originally posted by melons:
((((((((((((eire))))))))
I'm sorry I couldn't retrieve the post for you...
hugs,
Mel x
Melons,
I know you did your best and that is appreciated very much.
Hugs,
Eiregirl
Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:49 am
DarkChyldesKiss Site Admin
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 3381
Location: Inner Sanctum
Eire,
I live in California so I'm dealing with Governor Arnie and the havoc he's wreaked on the workers compensation insurance. I understand that we've got alot of fraud in California but the problem is the legitimately injured employees such as me are getting the shaft!
Arnie has given w/c another reason to procrastinate on treatments to people in pain! Where my doctor's have been able to easily treat my injury before Arnie now they've got to fight for everything. None of my docs have done anything for the hell of it. They've done things to keep me moving and to decrease my pain level.
I can't imagine the condition I would be in if all the new laws were in place in the beginning of my injury! Its possible I would be paralyzed right now because of the procrastination!
Nobody listens to the employees suffering! The government ignores what is being done to us.
Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 478
Location: @ home around the globe
The Perspective of an Ex F-1 student visa holder
Hi there,
very interesting and very triggering topic...dangerous one, too!
I can feel for you Eire. I used to live in the U.S. myself (I am German citizen). I really enjoyed my 5-plus years there but I do have to say that I felt imprisoned a lot there. i did not really see any of that "country of unlimited opportunities" that we learned in German high school as the first thing to know about the U.S. and its history of immigrants full of hope of finding exactly those unlimited opporunities, that freedom.
Well... I know I can't speak for American citizens, but as a foreigner, you really are chained. So many times I felt like I lived behind the Iron Curtain. You couldn't move and behave freely, always rules and laws and papers to fill out just to be allowed to go poop on the toilet basically..lol ok, that was an exaggerating joke, sorry. When I returned to Europe, it was only then that I really appreciated the freedom on this continent, freedom in all those countries at once. And I do believe foreigners here can move more freely than I could in the US.
However, obviously, the US has a reason to be "paranoid" and a reason to keep foreigners under control.
On the other hand, the first thing I noticed when I arrived in the U.S. was the lack of international, unbiased news. I found any kind of media news coverage as rather useless. I always went on German or British websites to inform myself on what was going on in the world. Americans have the reputation in the world that they do not know too much about things going on outside their country. I would say it would happen to every nation if they had such media propaganda that seems to be there to keep the nation under control and thinking a certain way.
I have to admit, after Bush got elected, things went way downhill... even though I was never homesick during all those years, I did slowly but surely start to looking forward to leaving the country and moving on and away, back to Europe at first and to be seen after.
It is extremely shocking how little privacy an individual has in the United States. Everything about yourself is stored in a huge database. At times it appears to me the government and the money-addicted industry knew more about me than I did.
I am sure I seem to be an anti-American in this post. I am not. But there are a lot of things rather screwed up in that country as well....but every country has its problems. There is nothing perfect whatsoever on this planet.
Something I really like about Americans is that they are very passionate, emotional, proud, and they support something whole-heartedly that they identify with. That's also why they get offended so easily, I think. It is always a double-sided sword.
I hope I didn't piss off the Americans of you with my post. I have had some serious discussions before about those kinds of topics in my MBA class back in my American days... those were some hot fights with some rednecks, believe me, our professor even ended up taking down our message board completely because it got too spicy...:-p !!! lol
Cheers & peace,
Footsie _________________ “Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson
I live in California so I'm dealing with Governor Arnie and the havoc he's wreaked on the workers compensation insurance. I understand that we've got alot of fraud in California but the problem is the legitimately injured employees such as me are getting the shaft!
Arnie has given w/c another reason to procrastinate on treatments to people in pain! Where my doctor's have been able to easily treat my injury before Arnie now they've got to fight for everything. None of my docs have done anything for the hell of it. They've done things to keep me moving and to decrease my pain level.
I can't imagine the condition I would be in if all the new laws were in place in the beginning of my injury! Its possible I would be paralyzed right now because of the procrastination!
Nobody listens to the employees suffering! The government ignores what is being done to us.
Hugs
Jan
Jan,
I am very sorry for what you are having to deal with...we have a friend in San Francisco who is dealing with the same problems and having a hell of a time getting what she needs.
Re: The Perspective of an Ex F-1 student visa holder
quote:Originally posted by Footprint:
Hi there,
very interesting and very triggering topic...dangerous one, too!
I can feel for you Eire. I used to live in the U.S. myself (I am German citizen). I really enjoyed my 5-plus years there but I do have to say that I felt imprisoned a lot there. i did not really see any of that "country of unlimited opportunities" that we learned in German high school as the first thing to know about the U.S. and its history of immigrants full of hope of finding exactly those unlimited opporunities, that freedom.
Well... I know I can't speak for American citizens, but as a foreigner, you really are chained. So many times I felt like I lived behind the Iron Curtain. You couldn't move and behave freely, always rules and laws and papers to fill out just to be allowed to go poop on the toilet basically..lol ok, that was an exaggerating joke, sorry. When I returned to Europe, it was only then that I really appreciated the freedom on this continent, freedom in all those countries at once. And I do believe foreigners here can move more freely than I could in the US.
However, obviously, the US has a reason to be "paranoid" and a reason to keep foreigners under control.
On the other hand, the first thing I noticed when I arrived in the U.S. was the lack of international, unbiased news. I found any kind of media news coverage as rather useless. I always went on German or British websites to inform myself on what was going on in the world. Americans have the reputation in the world that they do not know too much about things going on outside their country. I would say it would happen to every nation if they had such media propaganda that seems to be there to keep the nation under control and thinking a certain way.
I have to admit, after Bush got elected, things went way downhill... even though I was never homesick during all those years, I did slowly but surely start to looking forward to leaving the country and moving on and away, back to Europe at first and to be seen after.
It is extremely shocking how little privacy an individual has in the United States. Everything about yourself is stored in a huge database. At times it appears to me the government and the money-addicted industry knew more about me than I did.
I am sure I seem to be an anti-American in this post. I am not. But there are a lot of things rather screwed up in that country as well....but every country has its problems. There is nothing perfect whatsoever on this planet.
Something I really like about Americans is that they are very passionate, emotional, proud, and they support something whole-heartedly that they identify with. That's also why they get offended so easily, I think. It is always a double-sided sword.
I hope I didn't piss off the Americans of you with my post. I have had some serious discussions before about those kinds of topics in my MBA class back in my American days... those were some hot fights with some rednecks, believe me, our professor even ended up taking down our message board completely because it got too spicy...:-p !!! lol
Cheers & peace,
Footsie
I know exactly what you are saying...because I have been there
Like my grandmum said…Is glas iad na cnoc i bhfad uainn…distant hills look green.
And as they say here…the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.
It is different being here as a legal visitor or resident than as a naturalized or natural born citizen because there is more scrutiny especially in recent years. I miss Ireland and sometimes feel homesick for it but I love it here also and at times I feel torn between the two places I call home. We have traveled a lot to many different countries and we find that in most European countries you can feel just a free as you would in America but in some parts of the world it is not that way. Part of that feeling comes from speaking the language because it gives that more “at home” type of feeling another part of that comes from not looking like you’re a tourist. It has always been my experience that I could move around in the United States much more freely than I could from country to country in Europe but as far as moving country to country in North America (U.S to Canada and U.S. to Mexico or vice versa). It does seem to be a little more difficult because the scrutiny seems to be more with the exception of traveling between the U.S. and Mexico but in the past year that seems to be changing a little and we will find out the next time we go to Mexico.
Since the planes flew into the world trade center America has seemed to be a little more paranoid and as you said probably for good reason. I agree with you about the news here being biased…but recently I see it as being biased against the its own country.
I know for a fact that if it was not for America that Europe would have suffered much much more after World War II than it did particularly due to shortages of food and medicine but because of America that suffering was minimized and Europe was able to rebuild much faster because of the aid America provided. That however is where it should have ended and probably would have except in Europe there was a new bully on the block under the name U.S.S.R. that most of Europe felt they needed help to keep in check. In my opinion they were right…at the time even if every country in Europe stood against them they could not have won. Hitler made three big mistakes or he would have ruled all of Europe…eventually. The first was not uniting all of his people…no matter their religion or race. The second was attacking Russia when he did…he should have waited until after taking England and solidifying his military for attacking Russia. The third was not stopping Japan from attacking the United States…up until then the majority of America was against getting into the war.
The American government has provided various kinds of aid to every country on the face of this earth…sometimes with strings attached and sometimes not.
They have also attempted to give other countries the type of freedom that the vast majority of Americans take for granted…sometimes they have been successful and sometimes not. Many times that assistance caused problems to say the least no matter what the intentions were but without actually taking over every oppressed country in the world little else can be done except to provide aid and sit back and wait as hundreds of thousands more die either by actually being killed or by dieing of starvation and disease while their country is at war with itself. This leads to some alienation in the world but you cannot please everyone all the time. No matter what America does in the world and no matter the reasons it does it…someone is not going to like America doing it simply because it is America doing it.
It is extremely shocking how little privacy a person has anywhere in the technological world…a person would have to isolate themselves to have any total privacy. The place I felt the least privacy was when we were in London…it just seemed like we were always being watched.
“Something I really like about Americans is that they are very passionate, emotional, proud, and they support something whole-heartedly that they identify with. That's also why they get offended so easily, I think. It is always a double-sided sword.”
It is to bad most are not passionate, emotional and proud (as a whole) about the freedoms they take for granted. It is slowly changing here and it just goes by unnoticed because it happens little by little and if you are born into you don’t notice it.
The next time you are here…ask an American what the seventh amendment to the constitution is…I will bet that 99 times out of 100 they could not tell you.
Thank you very much for your reply...I appreciate it and your opinions.
Eiregirl
Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:27 am
realwoman
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: under our tree in Africa
And all I can add, is something I wrote during the 1990's (a time of significance regarding the creation of freedom for all South Africans):
"No one can be really free without everyone taking the responsibility that freedom brings, seriously..."
And all I can add, is something I wrote during the 1990's (a time of significance regarding the creation of freedom for all South Africans):
"No one can be really free without everyone taking the responsibility that freedom brings, seriously..."
real
Hugs real...real tight,
Thank you thank you...I looked and looked and looked and several others looked and looked and we could not find it...I was reading over it when the board went down and when Melons got it back up it was nowhere to be found.
Thank you again for finding it...I liked all the reply's and was sad to lose them and was worried cuppy might not repost her reply because she hates politics.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Gallery
FAQ
Profile PM's 
so if you would not mind and if at all possible please post your replies again and I will do my best to reply to them as closely as possible to any previous reply I made.
ok, that was an exaggerating joke, sorry. 
When I returned to Europe, it was only then that I really appreciated the freedom on this continent, freedom in all those countries at once. And I do believe foreigners here can move more freely than I could in the US.
